Author Topic: What is the point of MD5?  (Read 32214 times)

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Offline KingPhilip

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2009, 08:42:57 PM »
omg we need a mod to permanently unsubscribe from threads.

I second that.

Offline MadTechie

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2009, 08:43:44 PM »
That would be a good mod!
Computers are good at following instructions, but not at reading your mind.
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Offline PugJr

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2009, 08:44:44 PM »
How does one subscribe to a thread?

Offline .josh

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2009, 08:48:12 PM »
Okay by subscribe I mean how once you post in a thread, from then on forever and ever if someone posts in it, it will show up in the list of threads under "show new replies to your posts".  I want a mod where I can "unsubscribe" to a thread I posted in so I don't have to see it keep coming up on that list every time someone posts in it.

for the more traditional interpretation of subscribe, there's a button to the right of the posts/thread labeled "notify"
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 08:48:53 PM by Crayon Violent »

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Offline Daniel0

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2009, 08:52:05 PM »
Quote
If I give you two numbers: 1 and 0, and tell you that one is correct (what whatever arbitrary purpose) and the other is incorrect., how are you going to know which one? You can guess all you want, but you won't know the answer until I tell you.

This is where we are missing each other. No, my answer would be is that its either 1 or 0.  But it can not be 2, 3, 4, 5, +.

Well, then it's not really an answer is it? Saying "it's either 1 or 0" in response to "is it 1 or 0" isn't an answer. And of course it's not 2, 3 or 4. Those were undefined for that purpose. I could have "square or triangle", "monkey or donkey", "A or B".

I guess my whole point is kinda worthless.

It is pointless because it's false.

All I'm saying is that you can group all the content (Okay fine, not all since thats infinite, but whatever, a large number) with the same hash and within that group, it MUST be his hash. I've been saying that in most of my posts that I can group the ones with matching hashes, which then MUST contain the one we are looking for. I've also said plenty of times that you can not pinpoint the exact content of the message.

How do you know when your "large number" is large enough?



Also, this is my new lottery coupon:
[tex]|A| = 7, \forall a_i \in A : 0 < a \leq 36[/tex]
Now I won the Danish lottery. I'm a millionaire. YAY!! I'll go claim my money tomorrow morning, and they better give it to me because I was right about the numbers that were drawn.

Offline MadTechie

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #110 on: June 14, 2009, 08:53:43 PM »
if you don't post you can watch a post by using Notify, this can be controlled by the Notifications in the control panel
but once you posted you have no control, it always appears when you click "Show new replies to your posts." which makes sense but can be a pain! when your no longer active in that post,
IE if i say "this is a Apache problem not PHP" and then move the thread it will continue to appear on my list.
Computers are good at following instructions, but not at reading your mind.
The quality of a response, is usually directly related to the quality of the question. ©2009 mjdamato
I dunno about that.  A regular expression has a 0% chance of touching my penis.
the code is professionally made up but not working
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Offline PugJr

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #111 on: June 14, 2009, 09:33:04 PM »
Okay lets do points to see where we aren't understanding each other. I do agree the point is kinda useless, but it isn't wrong. Well maybe it is but anyways.


1. Madtechie, is your hash under a 1125899906842624 of characters? (Actually, I know for a fact it is.)

2. Now, that I have up to 1125899906842624 of characters (Well, I don't actually but anyways) for hashes, I must have yours.

3. Now I have all the possible hashes that can be equal to madtechies hash. Now what are my possiblities reduced to? Well yeah, like I previously said it isn't much of a point. But this is still not false. I'd bet ya that assuming I had a computer that can compute all the md5 hashes within that character limit, one of those would be madtechies. Well, lets see, what would the odds of me guessing it be? 1.5E933/62 (Letters and numbers)^32 (character count)...1.5E933/1.9E89. See how well I did Daniel? Now we are down to about 8.2E843 options. See! Within that group of 8.2E843 strings, I MUST have madtechie.

Unless I did some math wrong somewhere...

Offline MadTechie

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #112 on: June 14, 2009, 09:49:12 PM »
Really you know that for a fact!
Your assuming its under a petabyte, why not a yottabyte..
Letters and number.. again assuming ~Sighs!~

but that still doesn't get you my original input!
Computers are good at following instructions, but not at reading your mind.
The quality of a response, is usually directly related to the quality of the question. ©2009 mjdamato
I dunno about that.  A regular expression has a 0% chance of touching my penis.
the code is professionally made up but not working
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Offline PugJr

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #113 on: June 14, 2009, 09:54:27 PM »
Madtechie, I've never said it would. I just said I could group out all the possiblities or well reduce it or something. Actually, at this point I'm kinda confused.

Oh, wow, you got a petabyte hardisk? Where can you buy one? I would love to have one. I'd never run out of harddisk space again! (Until 50 years later when 1024 terrabytes are small.)

We can reasonably assume that some top-of-the-line harddisk owner wouldn't be spending his time in phpfreaks when he must have millions of dollars. He'd be spending a lifetime of vacations.

But see, 1 in 8.2E843 isn't too bad of odds right?  :D See how many possiblities are removed?

Offline MadTechie

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #114 on: June 14, 2009, 10:08:10 PM »
you could also assume i only used 1 letter in lowercase as well to bring the odds down.

Well a 2TB Hard drive is £187.74 so about £1,000,000 should cover it.
then i need to get a system that supports it, then fill that up with my password.. then probably buy a new CPU as the old would probably died, then run MD5 on it.. have a cup of tea while I wait..

1.2 petabytes of storage
Computers are good at following instructions, but not at reading your mind.
The quality of a response, is usually directly related to the quality of the question. ©2009 mjdamato
I dunno about that.  A regular expression has a 0% chance of touching my penis.
the code is professionally made up but not working
Remember to Click Solved, how to ask questions - the smart way

Offline corbin

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #115 on: June 15, 2009, 02:39:22 AM »
Fun math:

Let's assume a password is anywhere from 4 to 16 characters long, a-z0-9.

Total possible combinations:

Summation of (36^x), x = 16, go until x = 4 (including 4).

Yeah, I'm too lazy to figure out how to make a summation sign.  And, I'm too lazy to look up the formula that would simplify that immensely.

The total number of space taken would thus be:

Number of possibilities * 16 bytes + length of each possibility.

(The sum of the length of every possibility could be found by:
Summation of x*(36^x), x goes from 16 to 4.
)


Great, now I get to punch it all into a calculator x.x.



Actually hrmm...


<?php

//Summation of (36^x), x = 16, go until x = 4 (including 4).
//Summation of x*(36^x), x goes from 16 to 4.

$sum '0';

for(
$x 16$x >= 4; --$x) {
	
$sum bcadd($sumbcpow(36$x));
}

echo 
"There are {$sum} total combinations possible.\n";

$sum2 '0';

for(
$x 16$x >= 4; --$x) {
	
$sum2 bcadd($sum2bcmul($xbcpow(36$x)));
}

echo 
"{$sum2} bytes would be required to store the start text.\n\n";

echo 
"Total: " bcadd(bcmul(16$sum), $sum2) . " bytes.";


261719758492310867939371008 bytes!  Yeah!

About 232453841502 petabytes.





Now that I think about it, that sounds too high....  I did that math correctly, yes?

Hrmmm...  If the min length was 1, the max length was 2 and "a", "b", and "c" were the choices....

a
b
c
aa
ab
ac
ba
bb
bc
ca
cb
cc

12 choices...  (I should probably actually do 3 as the max length before I conclude anything, but I'm tired.)

3^x, x goes from 1,2

3 + 9.  12?  Hrmmm....  So I guess my math is right unless one of y'all sees an issue with it.




So...  at MadTechie's rate of 187.74 pounds per 2TB, that would cost about: 22344132712235679 pounds.



I feel like my math must have gone wrong somewhere....





Hrmmm now to wait for someone to correct my crazy-ass math.







Edit:  Oh wow....  I'm a dumb ass who should sleep...  I just thought about y'all's posts and realized a major thing I missed.  MD5 has a static hash length...

So the maximum number of MD5 hashes ever possible is 2^128.

Oh wait....   340282366920938463463374607431768211456 is larger than the total number of possible hashes that would exist.


Also, for the function md5(x), with output y, just because md5(x) is limited to z outputs does not mean anything in regards to the number of collisions.

Therefore, just because there are c possible inputs does not mean that there is a certain number of variables such that the md5() of the variable is equal to md5(x).


(Hopefully that made sense....  What I'm saying is, if the number of possible hashes was smaller than the number of possible passwords, that still does not mean that a collision exists for that particular password.  Also, nothing would insure that a collision would exist that met the same requirements.  In fact, I would expect that to be VERY unlikely.)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 02:46:45 AM by corbin »
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Offline Zane

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #116 on: June 15, 2009, 02:50:03 AM »
Are you shittin me? Still? 8 pages of the same question.

You can't crack a one-way encrypted.  no way no how.  and if you do somehow accomplish this task you'd probably have already went through years and years of your life trying.

Daniel has explained it time and time again (in math equations that I have no clue how to read really) and no one has had it seep in.

Seriously, here is my password to this site
*removed*

decrypt it
log in as me and go nuts

The End.  I'm gonna lock this thread now.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 10:58:17 AM by Daniel0 »

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Offline Daniel0

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Re: What is the point of MD5?
« Reply #117 on: June 15, 2009, 03:28:44 AM »
I don't mean to undermine your authority, Zane, but I have one last comment.

PugJr, the thing you're missing here is that this is mathematics. In mathematics a statement must be proven true, so it doesn't matter how big you make your range, and it doesn't matter that you say "I know your string is shorter". That's not a math proof.

People who still believe they can "crack"/decrypt/reverse a hash needs to reread this topic or preferably take some math courses.

Okay, now I'll leave.